ATP schools

[JasonG-CA-1107]

Hi Bob:

I am contemplating enrolling in ATP flight school upon graduation from college in May 2009. I went through two and half years of college before I decided that I wanted to be a pilot, but I thought finishing would be best and then entering the program. I had a couple of questions though and I was hoping you could help me with?

(1) If I do the accelerated Private Pilot and Airline Career Pilot programs it will take me 5 months to complete?

(2) I realize that I might have to instruct after completing the program and I was wondering if you could tell me how much I can expect to make beginning as an instructor? (I live in Los Angeles and I am renting the second house from my parents with my girlfriend and two brothers for a cheap rate and I will have to pay back about $90,000 in student loans.)

(3) Do you have any knowledge as to how many hours I could get a month as an instructor? (I'm thinking I might have to take up another part time job to make ends meet.)

(4) I have heard from many people that there is a high demand for instructors (especially in the Los Angeles area where I live.) Do you know anything?

(5) With the recent furloughs at the legacy airlines does that mean the minimums required to obtain an interview and employment are going to increase?

(6) Do you get jumpseat benefits from day one at an airline? (I like where I live and I was thinking about commuting to my hub.)

I hope that you can help me with these questions...... I'm sure there will be more to come. Thanks alot.

Jason Green

[ExpressJet_Bob]

Hiya Jason!

Welcome to the forums! Actually... I see that you joined back in November of last year... so... Thanks for posting for the first time!

I completely agree that finishing college is a good... nay... great idea! So, kudos for sticking with it. Most major airlines prefer degree's so that will be one less obstacle you will have down the road.

As to your questions... Here goes:

1. Yes... it should take 5 months to complete the PPL and ACPP programs. Typically, believe it or not... the PPL program only takes about a month to 6 weeks and the rest of the time is spend on the PIC cross country time building, as well as preparing for the the ACPP.

2. Rates for instructors vary by location and flight school. At this time... I believe ATP pays instructors a salary of $2000/month plus bonuses for various things along the way. So the absolute minimum you would make is $24,000/year. However, many flight schools only pay by the flight hour or by the "instruction" hour... not salary. So... based on that you have the potential of making very little money if you don't have many students (since if you are not flying, you are not getting paid)... or a lot of money if you have lots of students who fly frequently.

I've seen FBO's pay as little as $8-$10/hour and I've seen them pay upwords of $25-$35/hour. In other words... you may have to research it a bit to find a decent paying flight school.

3. Hours per month also varies by how many students you have. When I instructed at ATP I was averaging about 80 hours a month. I think my lowest month was @ 56 hours and my highest was well over 100. However I've had some buddies at FBO's who only averaged around 20 hours a month too. Remember... if you are only paid by the flight hour... then that can be a very small paycheck. But if you find a busy FBO, or if you can find a good cache of student clientele, then you can earn much more... especially if you hit the 80-100+ range.

4. I'm not familiar with your area of the country when it comes to flight instructors... but it's like anything else in this great country of ours... it all boils down to supply and demand. Since a great many pilots instruct to gain the requisite hour requirements to get hired at regionals, corporate, fractionals, 135 cargo, etc... then it stands to reason that as long as there is hiring going on at those companies... then there will be a need for instructors.

That said, at this specific moment in time... hiring has slowed at the regionals and majors since the economic impact of oil prices has caused a major downturn in the industry. The airline industry however... is cyclical. It will rebound and hiring will continue again. It always happens. Mostly because there is a mandatory retirement age for airline pilots. That means... every year, hundreds if not thousands of pilots retire... causing openings in those airlines. Combine that, with a spurt of economic growth and BAM! we have another hiring boom.

I've always contended that one of the best times to train for this job is during a downturn in the industry since that means you will be cocked and ready to be hired when the industry changes... yet again.

5. This goes back to the "supply and demand" argument. The short answer though... is Yes. If they have enough pilots to cover their needs for now, then typically minimums do increase. When the economy turns, the airline grows, and they've had tons of folks retire... then typically minimums go back down so that they can get a lot of candidates as fast as possible.

6. Yes... at least from the day the airline says you are "officall". That typically comes after you have successfully completed all aspects of their training program. So that could be up to two months after your initial class date.

Jumpseating is one of the many "perks" of this job. I live in DFW and I jumpseat on UPS to get to work in LA/Ontario. At this time... I don't want to relocate my family for this job. So, it's nice that I can live anywhere I want... as long as I'm willing to put up with the commute.

It's been said... that the best part about this job is being able to live anywere you want and knowing that you have the ability to "commute" to work. However... it's also been said that one of the worst things about this job... is the "commute" itself.

Many pilots could tell you some amazing "commuting" horror stories... It's a choice many of us live with, and we accept and ultimately try to plan for all the things that could go wrong during a commute. I typically have a Plan A, B, C, and D. Well... at least an A and B...


Hope that helps!

Bob

[JasonG-CA-1107]

Thanks for responding so quickly Bob. I think ATP is the right step for me. Do you know how long the average ATP graduate instructs before getting picked up by an airline? Also on the accelerated ACP program do you fly everyday? Thanks

[ExpressJet_Bob]

No problem Jason... glad to help!

As far as how long the average grad instructs... I hate to sound like a broken record here... but it goes back to supply and demand. When the mins at regional airlines are low and hiring is high... then some folks have instructed for only 1-4 months in the past. But when it's the opposite... mins are high and hiring is low... then it can go for 6-12+ months.

Personally, I instructed during a lull in the industry myself... just after 9/11. I ended up instructing for almost exactly 1 year. I was hired at XJT with @ 965 hours total... of which 600+ were multi.

As far as flying during the ACPP... the answer is no, you don't fly everyday. Even though it is an "immersion" program... there will still be plenty of downtime. You will have days off as well. That said... when you aren't flying... you are usually doing one of the following:

- Waiting on the weather to clear so you can fly.
- Studying for your written exams.
- Taking your daily quiz.
- Waiting to fly.
- Getting ground instruction.
- Simming
- More Sim...
- Yes... even more Sim...
- Dreaming about flying.
- Chair flying.
- Group Studying.
- Chilling out.
- Relaxing.
- Did I mention the Simulator?

Bob

[JasonG-CA-1107]

Hey Bob:

Sorry about all the questions, I have tons. I don't think you could give me a definate answer to this question because it depends on the airline, but what is the shortest and longest you've see pilots on reserve duty? I was also wondering if you get to choose your dominicle?

[ExpressJet_Bob]

I can try to answer...

The shortest I've seen... is... No reserve at all. Yes... I've seen folks come right out of training and into a "Line" or regular schedule. The longest... I've seen folks go several years. It really just depends on the situation at the the time for that particular airline.

As far as your domicile goes... you do get to choose it... kinda.

You place a bid for it during your initial training. If your company has 5 domiciles, then you would list the five in your order of preference, and then submit that list to crew planning. They will then determine where they need the most pilots, and then select from your lists in order of seniority. So... it's entirely possible to get your first preference if it's a fairly junior base/domicile... or if they are short of folks at that base @ the time you finish training.

Does that make sense? Let me know if I can clarify it for you...

Bob

[JasonG-CA-1107]

That completely make sense. My Aunts neighbor is a pilot for Frontier and he kinda explained it the same way. My only question is how do they decide seniority in training.... is it the date in which you get hired?

[ExpressJet_Bob]

Everyone in your same new-hire class will have the same date as the beginning of their "seniority". However... to determine the status of all the folks in that same class... it's actually quite simple. Age.

The oldest in the class will be the most senior. The line of thinking is simply this... the younger you are... the longer you have to fly for the company... and thus the more seniority you'll ultimately have. So... that's why the oldest folks get the higher seniority number on day one.

To put it another way... Let's say the company has 100 pilots on the payroll right now and you are the oldest in a new-hire class of 10. You would be number 1 in your class, but number 101 in the company, and the youngest in the class would be pilot 110 on the Seniority list.

Bob

[JasonG-CA-1107]

Bob:

I hope you aren't getting annoyed by me, but another question coming your way. I was reading up on per diem and I had a couple of questions. I know that you get paid a per diem for every hour that you are away from base, but I was wondering if you could elaborate more what that means? Do you get paid it while youre flying, layovers, and overnighters? I have also heard that it is untaxable, is that true? Finally I have also came across deadhead pay, while I was reading up on some things. I was wondering if you could talk about that as well? Thanks a bunch for all your work putting up with annoying people like myself lol.

-Jason

[ExpressJet_Bob]

Hey there Jason...

Please don't think I'm getting annoyed by your questions... I'm actually here to answer these types of questions for you. So... you can keep them coming!

Per-diem is different depending on each pilot groups negotiated contract. Ours states that you do get per-diem for every single hour you are on your trip. That includes overnight, while flying, while eating, etc...

It is not taxed... unless you are in your own base. So... if you get an overnight in your home base in the middle of a trip (which is inusual) then that per-diem is taxed.

Deadhead pay is a type of "soft time". Soft time is time that you get paid for without actually working. Deadheading is when the company relocates a crew to a new city in order to either start or continue a trip. Deadhead crews sit in the passenger seats too, and pay is again determined by your negotiated contract. At XJT... we get 100% deadhead pay... in other words... we get paid our normal flight time rate for the flight time of the deadhead flight. Some airlines only pay 50%, some more, some less... again... it depends on what you can negotiate.

Bob