What should I do?

[AlexanderR_MA]

Hi there, I'm new to this online forum and am not sure if I'm posting this question in the right place, but here it goes. I want to fly- that's the bottom line- but I'm not sure what approach makes the most sense from where I stand now. I'm 21 years old, fresh out of college, I have my instrument and about 260 hours (mostly cross country flying family). I've heard such great things about ATP from friends and instructors who have gone, however, I'm unsure of what course of action I should take- should I try to get my commercial and CFI from my local airport (KDXR) or should I just opt for the the all inclusive (and all expensive) ATP 3 month program. I want to fly professionally, and I know that all the multi time is very valuable, plus the jet experience (isn't ATP getting those D-jets in 2009). Right now I'm just paying off student loans with a summer job, but everytime a plane flys over all I want to do is being flying it... I'm not sure what route I should take- what would you do? Thanks for your time. Sincerely Alexander R

[ExpressJet_Bob]

Hi there Alexander!

Welcome to the forums!

It does seem as though you have "the bug"... the "aviation" bug, that is.

Knowing that you want to fly for a living... especially after having 260 hours under your belt... means that you have a bit more of a headstart and understanding of what it may take than those starting with 0 hours.

Since you already have your Instrument under your belt... then you certainly do have several options. There are many folks who go to ATP with an Instrument or Commercial rating already printed on their licenses. Many of these folks just really want the experience of flying all multi-engine aircraft with the opportunity to fly across the country into very diverse airspace... all the while learning and preparing for your CFI, and paying only 1 set price for a program with a defined start and end time.

But... that's not to say that the standard FBO route could be good for you. You already have experience with that it seems. While it appears cheaper... you still have to deal with aircraft availability/realiability, and you and your instructor's schedule. For example... it took me almost two years to get my PPL for those reasons... but yet it took me 90 days to get the rest of my ratings in one shot.

There are certainly FBO's out there that are the exception to that... and all it really takes is some hardcore research to find one that may be close to you.

ATP will be getting access to the DJets once the FAA give Diamond final approval. Then ATP will start receiving their own aircraft shortly thereafter. Originally, the timeline was for ATP to have access to the DJets in late 2008 and start receiving the aircraft in 2009. However, I believe that those dates may be backed up a bit due to Diamond finding out that their original engine is underpowered, and have thus decided to change to a higher performing engine. That will delay the FAA certification, and thus... ATP's aircraft as well.

At this point... my advice is to keep your research up, and keep paying down those student loans as much as you can.

The industry is in a bit of a lull right now, even though there are still carriers hiring. But, I believe that a lull is a great time to learn to fly... because you don't feel as "rushed" to get done and get hired. I'd use this time to get your ratings and get your CFI so that you can start instructing to gain even more valuable experience... and start getting paid to fly vs. paying someone else!

What do you think so far?

Keep in touch, and I'll be happy to help you with your research as well.

Bob

[AlexanderR_MA]

Thank you so much for your advice. I feel that going to ATP is still the best option for me, but there is a chance that I could get even more qualified between now and then. Last summer I was training for my commercial sel, and was so close to getting it but then I ran out of time. Ironically, this summer I have much more time but no money. Furthermore, I haven't flown since last August! The chandelles and lazy eights are blurry in hindsight. My written is going to expire in August as well. What I'm trying to say is that now with funds being tight- maybe it would make most sense for me to do it all at ATP- take out one big loan.
Does the 90 program ever get pro-rated- for example since I have my instrument would that cut any time out of the program? Or is it 190 hours no matter what.
Also with the ATP loan, how manageable were the monthly payments and how much does one actually end up spending over the loan term? Thank you so much for answering my questions- I really appreciate it. -Alexander

[ExpressJet_Bob]

Wow... it sounds like you've got some big decisions on the horizon...

As far as the program goes... I believe there is a pro-rated discount if you don't do the CFI portion of the program. I'd call the 800 number to verify that though. (800-255-2877).

Edit: I actually went ahead and called for you... Yes, they do give a $2000 refund for dropping the CFI course. But... me personally.... I think the CFI ratings are worth more to you than you may believe.

Also, I was told that ATP has a pro-rated refund policy. So... let's say you drop the course after your Instrument checkride... then you'd get a pro-rated discount for the rest.

Hope that helps.

Regarding the loans... I'm afraid that is one area where I personally don't have a lot of experience. Believe it or not... I paid cash for the program when I went through. (It hurt... but it was what I wanted to do). That said, if you call the number listed above and ask to speak to someone in "Admissions", then they can run down an approximate loan structure for you.

Over time... I'm sure it's just like any other loan with interest. The lower the rate, the better... and the shorter the term, the less you'll pay over and above the loan amount. But those admissions guys can give you a bit more real-world info I'm thinking.

Bob

[AlexanderR_MA]

Thank you so much for the effort you've put into helping me. It sounds like the CFI discount is nominal and not worth it- the program would still cost a whopping 57,000. I guess how I feel about ATP at this point is that it's overkill. Being in the situation I'm in now, 180 hours of multi time seems excessive- I probably need only around 100 hours I'm guessing- plus the Rj standards certification. Maybe taking the multiengine course and then taking the regional jet standards course would be best? I would still need to log 40 odd hours to be appealing to an airline though- does this sound like a good idea- or not enough quality multi time...

[ExpressJet Jeremy]

Hi, Alexander,

Bob is on vacation this week and asked me to help out for a few days while he's out of pocket. I'm getting in late here, but there are a couple of things that I want to address.

First, you can never have too much multi engine time. If you show up at an interview with 200 hours of multi and everyone else there has 100 hours of multi, you are ahead of the game.

Second, multi time is not easy to get (which is why everyone shows up at the interview right at 100 hours). When you are a CFI, or any other entry level flying job, you have to scrimp, beg and plead for every hour of multi that you can (unless, of course, you are an ATP instructor).

Third, ATP's Career Pilot program gives you ~140 hours of flight time in the Seminole. The other 50 hours come in a multi-engine FTD (which helps you meet requirements for checkrides, but does not count towards total flight time).

When you say you are considering taking the "multi-engine course," I'm not sure I know what you mean. I'm guessing that you mean just flying to get the multi-time and then dropping out to take a pro-rated discount. I would think three times before attempting that and then think twice more!

For one thing, you'd have to go all the way through your Commercial Multi checkride to get the bulk of multi time that ATP offers. Remember, all of ATP's training is done in the multi. Therefore, you can't just opt out of the instrument portion of the course. Already having an instrument rating doesn't really affect your status with ATP. You'll do the same flying that a non-instrument rated pilot flies, just without the instrument checkride.

The multi private is about 8 hours. The instrument is about 35 hours. Most of your time comes from the cross country and then there are a few more hours for the commercial multi. After you do that, if you take a pro-rated early departure, I think you'll be disappointed in how much $$ you'll actually get back. You will have burned through most of the cost of the program by that time.

Furthermore, if you do that, you might as well do the CFI course, since that is the next step--and then you're done!

Finally, I'll echo Bob's opinion... whatever you do, get your CFI ratings. You might just find yourself wishing you had them somewhere down the line.

I know this might not seem like the answers that you're looking for. But I definitely want you to be clear on all the facts before you make your decision. I'll be around for a few more days until Bob gets back if you have more questions.

Jeremy

[AlexanderR_MA]

Hi Jeremy, thanks for your very thorough response. I know that ATP provides the most comprehensive program out there, and that getting multi-time is a total pain. The main concern I have is money. I am not worried about being approved for a loan, I am worried about being approved and then paying for it. When you went to ATP did you take out a loan for the full amount. I don't mean to pry- I'd just want to know how people cope with repaying the debt especially considering I can only expect to make roughly $20,000 as a fresh first officer (right?). Also will ATP be able to help me find a job flying in Canada? I will be moving in with my girlfriend in September in Ottawa and anticipate living there for the forseeable future. Canada doesn't have any aviation programs that hold even a candle to ATP. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions- I really appreciate it. I wish I could be flying now!

[ExpressJet Jeremy]

You're welcome.

When I went to ATP, the program cost was considerably less than it is today. But, to answer your question, yes, I did take a loan for the full amount, plus checkrides (back then, checkrides were cheaper, too).

Whether you are prepared to pay back the loan is certainly something that you'll have to consider before you take on that kind of debt burden. Everyone's financial situation is different, and I wouldn't give advice on how you do it. I will say that yes, it is a challenge to earn a living as a new, low time pilot and pay back a large loan--but there are lots of FOs and flight instructors out there who do it.

This is definitely an industry where the fruits of your sacrifice take some time to develop.

I'm not sure if ATP has any connections with the Canadian regional airlines. I haven't seen or heard of anyone going there after ATP so I would doubt it.

You'll have to do research about the licensing requirements to work as a pilot in Canada. Just because you would have an FAA commercial license does not necessarily mean that you can work under that certificate in Canada. Also, will the airlines even hire you if you are not Canadian? For example, I would have a hard time going to certain countries in Europe and working as a pilot. Just a whole host of issues to look into.

I'm sorry I wasn't able to be more helpful on this one.

Jeremy