Introduction

[TylerH-NC-1108]

Matt...

Where do I begin? I started at Florida State in 2003 with plans on being a doctor. I did very well in my studies and even taught bio courses while there. I graduated this April at the top of my class and was on my way to medical school. I started a job at UNC Hospitals in my home state of NC and the application process to med school. After several months of working and years of doubting that I really wanted medicine, I woke up one morning completely miserable and decided that I couldn't do it anymore.

Through out HS and my college years I would log hours on my flight sim and reading aviation websites. I traveled very frequently and always felt best when I was on the go. I seriously caught the flying bug when a friend of mine's father, who was a pilot on a 747 for NWA, took me flying in his Seminole a few times. As for the lifestyle of pilots, I got a very good picture of it when I lived in a neighborhood of US Air (back then at least, before it was Airways) pilots in Charlotte.

All this to say I have finally bit the bullet and decided to jump feet first in to aviation. Naturally, making the change from medicine to aviation is a little scary but at the same time I have never been more excited about an opportunity. I want to be in the right seat of a carrier as soon as I can but I unfortunately have 0 flight hours.

So my questions to you -

Why ATP? What makes ATP better than the other schools?
How much am I going to be able to complete here at RDU?
What are your suggestions for being successful in the flight program?
Am I starting too late (I am 23)?
What is the career outlook for this industry?

Thanks for taking time to answer. I really to believe that being a pilot is for me and I am excited for the possibility of joining ATP.

Tyler

oops... not "to believe" it should be "do believe"

[ASA Matt]

Tyler,

Thanks for the post and welcome to the forums! Hope you were able to find your post alright--I took the liberty of moving it so it would be more visible to others reading the forum. Thanks also for the meticulous post. It's refreshing to see someone actually take the time to use capitalization, proper punctuation and sentence structure. You med students, I tell ya, everything's gotta be perfect!

It's clear why they decided to assign you to me. We have VERY similar backgrounds. I'm sure you've read my bio and know that I was in an almost identical situation as you when I was in school at UGA. I know the feeling when you get up one day and ask yourself, "Is this really what I want to be doing the rest of my life?" My dad a physician, I was able to see at a young age that medicine was definitely not for me! Good news is you clearly have the passion, the education, and the years (NO, 23 is not too old!) to be very successful in this industry. You've got an idea of what it's like. The question now is where to start.

You are, and I'm not just saying this, an absolutely ideal candidate for ATP. You have a four year degree out of the way and therefore the discipline required to handle ATP's accelerated training. You want to get to the airlines as quickly as possible. In other words, you sound just like me when I was your age (just three years ago!). I mean, even down to the reading websites, playing flight sim, and talking to retired airline pilots--it's uncanny!

ATP is, without a doubt, the fastest and most cost effective way to get to the airlines. Their training is offered to and structured around individuals who want that and (pretty much) only that. That's what really makes them stand out amongst the competition. The training you'll receive throughout will be aimed at preparing you for a job with the airlines. From checklist usage, to CRM, to a crew environment during cross country flying, ATP exposes you to an airline-type environment from the start. The fact that you have zero hours is really arbitrary. Remember: I had zero hours when I started and made it to ASA in eleven months. And that was before the regionals reduced hiring minimums! Here's what ATP has to offer:

A fast-track program that will take you from zero time to completely certificated in about six months time.

Opportunities to then instruct for ATP in order to build time needed to apply to the airlines.

A week long RJ course that will get you an interview with any number of regional airlines of your choosing.

A total fixed price under $70k.

RDU only offers the Airline Career Pilot Program--the second part of your training. You'll need to complete the Private Pilot Program at another location. While JAX was the only location offering private when I went through, there are eight locations now that offer it. I recommend ATL or JAX. While it would be nice to complete all your training at one location, two months on the road ain't bad, especially when the housing is included. ATL has a brand new facility that is pretty awesome--you may just end up wanting to do all your training there. Here's a link to ATP's complete program guide. You'll need the Airline Career Pilot Program with the Private Pilot Addition (first two listed):

http://www.atpflightschool.com/programs/ATP_Program_Index.pdf

Your success in the program, like I tell everybody, depends entirely on your attitude. ATP is a Part 61 flight school. What this means, essentially, is that, while you are able to receive your training much faster than at a Part 141 school, it requires a lot of discipline on the part of the student. You're a pre-med student with a four year degree. I have absolutely no doubt that you'll be able to handle the pace. You know how to read, study and prepare for exams. The rest is having fun and keeping your eye on the prize.

As for the industry, with today's economy, it's hard for anybody to be doing well--especially the airlines. There's going to be a lot of change in the near future. Some airlines may even go the way of Eastern and Pan Am. But the industry is cyclical. We may see hiring again as soon as this spring. What you want to do is be ready when that hiring starts. I was fortunate to have my interview with ASA right at the beginning of the last hiring binge. Even with the slow-down, I still enjoy pretty good seniority in the right seat. You never know with this job, but you definitely want to be prepared. (Go to the thread “industry update” in my forum and watch the video)

Hope all this helps, Tyler. Please don't hesitate to post any other questions you have. This is a big decision, and I want to help you any way I can, whether you decide on ATP or another school. Good luck!

[TylerH-NC-1108]

Matt,

Thanks for such a complete response. After looking through all the schools I think that I have decided that ATP is for me. Right now I am processing through getting my 1st Class Medical and financing and trying to find a way to gracefully bow out of my job and deal with the initial shock everyone is experiencing that I no longer desire a career in medicine.

As for being pre-med... you are correct in saying everything has to be perfect. That is part of the reason I think I would make a good pilot because you have to be very aware and detail oriented.

As I am going through these beginning steps, I was noticing that there was nothing about Air Wisconsin, Shuttle America, and some of the other regional carriers (mainly Delta ones that I often fly in and out of TLH) on the ATP site. Do these carriers not hire graduates from ATP? or is it just that there aren't partnerships with those airlines and ATP?

Ultimately I would love to remain in the southeast or mid-atlantic area and in the long term work for a legacy carrier like Delta or US Airways out of ATL/CLT. So, for right now, I was just wondering about that... thanks again for such an expedient response!

Tyler

[ASA Matt]

Tyler,

Good to hear that you've begun the process. I think ATP is going to be a good fit for you. Let me know if you need any help with the things like locating an AME, etc. Again, the hardest part is getting started.

What kind of work are you doing now? Had you started med school yet? I'm wondering if maybe the hardest part is going to be telling your family that you want to pursue something that, unlike medicine, can be a little uncertain at times. In the end, though, all that matters is that you're doing something that you love. Who wants to spend the better part of their adult life being miserable? Good work.

As for your question about hiring, upon completion of the ACPP, you will meet the basic requirements to be hired by pretty much any of the regional airlines including Air Wisconsin and Shuttle America. It just depends on what kind of total time they're looking for and whether or not they prefer "advanced" or jet training. ATP has "hiring alliances" with a number of regional airlines including ASA, PSA, Republic (which owns Shuttle America), American Eagle, and ExpressJet. What this means is that these airlines will offer interviews exclusively to ATP grads with lower total time who have met specific requirements which usually include completion of ATP's Regional Jet Standards Certification program. In other words, once you meet certain minimum time requirements, you can apply to whatever airline you want. Your best bet, however, is to flight instruct to build time, complete the RJ program, and take advantage of ATP's hiring alliances in order to get on with a regional airline as quickly as possible. Remember: it's all about seniority. At your age, there's no question you could get to a legacy carrier by the time your 30.

Keep the questions coming and good luck!

>Matt

[TylerH-NC-1108]

Matt,

Thanks again for the quick response. I found an AME on the FAA website and am getting my 1st class on Tuesday of next week. You probably won't know this, or you might, but will I need to get the EKG as well?

Right now I am working in Infectious Disease at an AIDS research facility but I am going to have train my replacement and I am in the process of trying to find a way to leave. I have told all of my family and they have been very supportive. The folks at work have been a different story. Most think I am crazy and am wasting my future or they think that I should just do graduate school. I have been very gracious to their advice but none the less am moving on.

I am looking right now, barring problems with my financing or any other unforeseen problems, starting the program on the first monday in Feb at Jacksonville. I have decided on the 90-day fast track program because I have the time and no other financial commitments/debt. I looked at your Dec schedule but no trips/overnights at RDU.

One thing I was thinking was is it better to fly night cargo or instruct to build time?

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

Tyler

[ASA Matt]

Tyler,

Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving! I was down in South Georgia visiting family until this evening.

About the FAA medical--you don't need an EKG until you're 40, unless you take specific heart related meds like antihypertensives, etc.

I'm glad that, despite what others are saying, you've made your own decision. Of course, there's no knowing what the future has in store for us. Just do what your gut tells you. Everything happens for a reason.

Sounds like you've got everything taken care of! I think you'll like JAX. I spent a lot of time down there. It's a solid location with dedicated instructors. You'll also get to meet ATP's chief pilot, Rich Tillery. He's quite a character!

As far as hours go, I wouldn't turn down any opportunities. Your plan should be to get as many hours (preferably multiengine hours) as quickly as possible. Instructing for ATP is one of the quickest ways to do just that. Flight instructing is a tremendously rewarding experience as well. More so that any other type of flying, I would venture to say. It really develops your flying skills in a hurry! It's a great way to continue learning (great pilots are constantly learning) while building time. Bottom line is, if you have more than one opportunity to build time, shoot for whatever will give you the best balance of hours vs experience.

Well done, Tyler! Let me know when you get your books!

>Matt

[TylerH-NC-1108]

Matt... as always I have more questions for you.

As I am about to make a huge commitment, I decided to do a little more reading between getting my First Class Medical and taking a visit to the major schools. I have been in online forums and many suggest doing my training at a local FBO and saving $20-30K. One problem I have is finding a FBO with multi-engine equipment. The big debate is to go to or not to go to a big training academy. I guess my question to you is why should I spent the extra money if flight time is king during the hiring process at regionals?

Also, there seems to be the great debate between DCA vs ATP vs FSA. People debate the cost, living arrangements, time and anything else about the schools you can imagine. I am a bit discouraged at some of the things I have read about ATP (and others). Concerns with management, flight time varying from advertised times, constant rescheduling due to maintenance, and several sour experiences have me questioning my decision. In fairness, I have read positive things about ATP but naturally the negative remain more in mind than the positives. It seems to me that people either hate or love their ATP experience. There doesn't seem to be much in between. I am also having trouble deciding which of the big schools would be best for me. Glass cockpits at DCA are obviously beneficial and the reputation of FSA is great. ATP offers lower cost and quicker rating times but it is all just very confusing.

Basically, as I have said before, I want to get my ratings in the most cost effective/time sensitive manner. I want to be at a place where the instructors are pleasant and will get me to the right seat of a jet as soon as possible. Thanks for any insight you can give. Obviously I know you are an ATP advocate, but any insight would be beneficial. You know, before spending ~$70K, I just want to make sure I am making the right decision.

Thanks,

Tyler

[ASA Matt]

Tyler,

I totally understand and respect the fact that you're giving this process its due dilligence. Just like we've both said, this is a HUGE change not to mention an expensive one. Making the right decision from the start with where to get your training can mean the difference between a successful career and an unsuccessful one.

Let me put it in this perspective. Airlines are interested in (primarily) two things: time and experience. Time of course means total time. By experience, they're looking at the quality, so to speak, of that total time. What is most important to the airlines, understandably, is multiengine time. This is where ATP has the advantage over most of it's competitors. All of their programs are focused on gaining multiengine time. Notice that the first thing you do in the ACPP is get your multiengine rating. That way, every other certificate you get from that point on is in the Seminole. Other flight schools typically do your instrument and commercial training in a single-engine before they give you your multiengine ratings. This is usually for cost reasons--it's cheaper for them to fly you around in a single-engine airplane than it is a multiengine.

ATP's programs were tailored for the airlines. As far as overall value goes, there's no beating ATP.

As with all prospective students, you've done your homework. You've read stories offering both praise and criticism. Here's what I'll say about that and it should sound familiar: it's all about attitude. JAX is ATP's premier location. As far as quality goes, there's really no better spot. That being said, a student's relationship with his instructor depends on many things. I was fortunate in that I got along great with my instructors. Where I think people run into issues with ATP is when their own lack of motivation is coupled with an instructor that might be less motivated as well. There's no doubt in my mind, however, that if you're a motivated, disciplined student with at least some inherent ability, it's not going to matter. Your success in ATP's programs are really more about you than your instructor. The fact that you're asking these questions is proof enough for me that you'll do just fine.

DCA and FSA are both fine schools. What you have to consider is the end product vs the cost. All three of these schools will get you the certificates and ratings you need to fly a commercial airplane as will the local FBO. What you need is the right experience. If an airline has two applicants that have the same qualifications as far as ratings and certificates are concerned, they're going to look next at the type of flight experience you have. This is where multiengine time makes all the difference. This coupled with the included housing is why I still think ATP can't be beat. Of course, DCA and FSA's programs may have changed since I was a student. Learn from the forums, but keep this in mind. Many forums were created by and cater to people who love to hear themselves complain. This is why I don't really read forums anymore. It's also why this forum was created.

Keep up the good work, Tyler. Whatever you decide, keep me posted. I'll be more than happy to give these schools a call for you and answer any other questions you have, regardless of your decision. We want to get you to the airlines, bottom line.

>Matt

[TylerH-NC-1108]

Matt,

It seems these days the deeper I get in to this the more questions I have. I got my first class medical today and was supposed to go on my first discovery flight. When I got to my local FBO, they had me scheduled in a chopper, not a fixed wing aircraft... oops. So for driving all the way to the airport during a work day they are doubling the time that they'll take me up this Saturday. So while I was very bummed I didn't get to go on my flight, I am going to get a little more time and I was able to get my medical certificate.

While I was there I did have the opportunity to speak with an instructor and our conversation really convinced me that ATP is for me. He had nothing but nice things to say and I think I have enough confirmation that how ever positive or negative my experience is totally depends on me and my willingness to put forth the effort to learn.

So now this moves me to the next step of financing. I must say, the news today from Delta and others that they will be shrinking service has me a bit worried but I know the economy will turn around, but how son is the question. The last thing I want is to be jobless with a $70K loan floating above my head. But you know what they say... no risk no reward.

As far as financing is concerned though, would I qualify for student loans? I don't have much credit and what I do have is good, but what if I can't get someone to co-sign a loan with me? How long does the financial process take and when would be a reasonable time frame to expect to start? How much can I expect to spend on "living," being as housing is included?

Also, I was speaking with my parents, who of course are concerned about the financial aspect of this and they brought up the point of "what if I just don't make the cut and am not a good pilot?" Am I out $70K (naturally I know they wouldn't refund)? Is there a program failure or a point where you just don't make the grade, so to speak? If so, how often does this happen?

I am trying to schedule a tour of the JAX, DAB, and ATL locations in a weekend. I have narrowed my choices down to these three but I really think it is important to see and meet some people where I going to be, but I am not sure that it is cost effective right now to do that. What is your take on these three locations in the event I can't make it to any of them?

Hopefully that should take care of my questions at least until I finish my discovery flight! I still havea few questions about married life/family life in the airline business as it has changed since I last lived around pilots and how you personally deal with being away from your family/wife (if you're married), but those can wait for now. I really appreciate the time, effort, and sincerity in your answers. You have truly been a help and all of the folks at ATP have really stood out among the other schools by being genuine and having a sincere concern for answering ALL my crazy questions!

Thanks again,

Tyler

[ASA Matt]

Tyler,

While a helicopter would have been fun, it's a little bit different experience! Good work with the discovery flight--that extra half hour/hour will feel like minutes, believe me! You'll love it.

Delta did announce today that they would be cutting some capacity in the new year. This was expected, however, so we'll just have to see what that means exactly. You never know how long these things are gonna last, but the industry will come around eventually.

I hate to say it, but I'm probably least knowledgeable about the loan process. ATP uses a different bank now than they did when I went through and different types of loans. Your best bet would be to call the 800 number and speak to someone in the main office who's more up-to-date on the whole process. I don't see why you wouldn't qualify for a student loan, though. I had very little credit as well, but remember, most students do! It's not a home loan we're talking about here!

I CAN tell you about expenses! This, of course, depends on the kind of lifestyle you wish to maintain during the program. I was right out of college and therefore required very little. With no housing expenses whatsoever, my bills usually amounted to about $500-$750/mo which included my cell phone, car insurance, gas, and food, mostly (some entertainment mixed in). Mind you, I lived pretty modestly. I moved between JAX and ATL with most of my belongings fitting in a laundry basket. I would eat a bowl of cereal for breakfast, pack a sandwich, chips, and an apple for lunch, and usually make one of my college day staples for dinner--chili, spaghetti, and something called a "dawg bowl" (a UGA invented concoction which was pretty much the contents of a burrito put in a bowl). As I got to know the instructors and other students, we'd go out to dinner a few nights a week. Some really great times, by the way. In essence, it's a lot like, well...being in college! Except, instead of studying theories of rhetoric (I was a speech comm major), you're flying airplanes!

As far as "making the cut" is concerned, I can already tell, you'll be fine. Like I said before, it takes about 10% innate ability and about 90% attitude. The only way you'll fail is if you want to. There are those few, however, that have the motivation but lack that little bit of basic skill required to fly. I had a student when I was instructing down in JAX who wanted to be a pilot so bad, but just couldn't grasp the basics of flying. Others who don't make it are bad test takers. Checkrides (you'll take eight of them) are nerve racking experiences. Some people just can't handle it. They crack under the pressure. You're a pre med, though, so I really don't believe you'll have a problem being prepared and therefore confident during your checkrides. You're mature enough to handle it. I think your parents probably already know this!

I can speak personally about JAX and ATL. I trained and instructed at both these airports. JAX and ATL are two of ATP's oldest locations. They're both maintenance bases and are managed by full-time salaried instructors. Our chief pilot is down in JAX in addition to other management types. Wylie Jones is ATL's manager. Both are well staffed and well run. Don't think you could go wrong with either of those two. If you do get a chance to check out one, come up to ATL. The Lawrenceville location is a brand new facility that is really going to be fantastic. I'd be willing to meet you up there if you wanted.

Have fun on your discovery flight! It's a flight you'll never forget, believe me!

>Matt